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+--- Thread: CM2250 VGT delete issue (/Thread-CM2250-VGT-delete-issue)
CM2250 VGT delete issue - colterHD - 05-28-2020
i personally refuse to do VGT deletes on cummins, i have a client with two done that are showing signs of excessive cylinder pressure, exhaust pressure and turbo inlet temp are deleted, id like someone who knows more then myself with fixed vane to look at the cal or build a new one, or if anyone has an overlay for the non vgt portion of the delete
PM me with services and cost
i have current delete cal file and a original cal for it
RE: CM2250 VGT delete issue - moon monkey - 05-29-2020
I hate the removing the VGT turbo too. I don't understand why people think saving $1000 dollars is gunna do them any good when their truck runs kinda like shit.
What kind of truck are you looking to remove it from?
RE: CM2250 VGT delete issue - colterHD - 05-30-2020
(05-29-2020, 06:56 PM)moon monkey Wrote: I hate the removing the VGT turbo too. I don't understand why people think saving $1000 dollars is gunna do them any good when their truck runs kinda like shit.I flat out refuse to do it,
What kind of truck are you looking to remove it from?
2012 kenworth T800, already removed by a butcher shop hence sensors removed, they came to me because of a typical 559 code and black fuel, i'm willing to bet the cylinder pressure is unseating the injectors and burnt the combustion seal, i told them im not moving forward with repair until we figure out the tuning or hes just going to be throwing money away, also has active EGR codes.
tune itself is very bad, mode jumping, aftertreatment HEX wiped and blocked codes to make it look like its behaving, no compensation for inlet temp sensor and exhaust pressure loss, emission system still active, all the air handling is OEM.
ive done some 870 tuning but nothing like the VGT so to get this engine back under control and properly manage MCF with this dinosaur of a turbo i either need help or itll be a start from scratch and begin testing.
RE: CM2250 VGT delete issue - zyNoT - 05-31-2020
You cannot do the combustion reference modifications to adjust for MCF after a VGT delete properly with just Calterm. You need to calculate it with MATLAB source files.
RE: CM2250 VGT delete issue - colterHD - 05-31-2020
(05-31-2020, 04:53 PM)zyNoT Wrote: You cannot do the combustion reference modifications to adjust for MCF after a VGT delete properly with just Calterm. You need to calculate it with MATLAB source files.I figured I needed more based on info I’ve found. It’s beyond my knowledge. Is this something you have done?Is this a service you provide?
RE: CM2250 VGT delete issue - zyNoT - 05-31-2020
(05-31-2020, 05:40 PM)colterHD Wrote:Yes I can do VGT deletes, however, I always recommend keeping the VGT on. You have much more control over the entire combustion process, not to mention a better jake brake and better fuel economy.(05-31-2020, 04:53 PM)zyNoT Wrote: You cannot do the combustion reference modifications to adjust for MCF after a VGT delete properly with just Calterm. You need to calculate it with MATLAB source files.I figured I needed more based on info I’ve found. It’s beyond my knowledge. Is this something you have done?Is this a service you provide?
RE: CM2250 VGT delete issue - colterHD - 05-31-2020
(05-31-2020, 07:19 PM)zyNoT Wrote:this one someone else did and theyre having issues, i refuse to do them because its poor and outside my knowledge but this client id told id look for a solution and get the engine under control before we go in and start spending money on mechanical repairs.(05-31-2020, 05:40 PM)colterHD Wrote:Yes I can do VGT deletes, however, I always recommend keeping the VGT on. You have much more control over the entire combustion process, not to mention a better jake brake and better fuel economy.(05-31-2020, 04:53 PM)zyNoT Wrote: You cannot do the combustion reference modifications to adjust for MCF after a VGT delete properly with just Calterm. You need to calculate it with MATLAB source files.I figured I needed more based on info I’ve found. It’s beyond my knowledge. Is this something you have done?Is this a service you provide?
i do have MATLAB and Simulink but am at a learning point with it as well
i would be willing to hire you do repair this cal for us and any learning i gain in the process is a benifit to me and my company. let me know your procedure and rates or i can send you personal contact info, whatever works best
RE: CM2250 VGT delete issue - MaraJin - 06-04-2020
the MCF "Mass Charge Flow" manager is the manager responsible for converting intake pressure and flow requests and sending then onward to the VG turbo manager(s).
Someone can make special procedure and calculations all they want to and adjust on the MCF tables but it will not effect a mechanically driven turbo or how the egine runs. Simply disable any derates it wants to impose because it can no longer control the "air" and leave it alone.
(study carefully what I say here if you are someone still learning, this is the correct info) ...
===============
The MCF is fed by the CBR/CBO (combustion request and off nominal correction request managers) and is selected by what engine mode your in, etc... it then gets sent to => and filtered by the CHL (charge/boost limit) manager then goes thru the => CSE (charge/boost system error correction) manager then goes thru the => CSE-Xform angle manager so it can be split into offsets for clean vs. dirty air / intake pressure requests and EGR requests, then goes onwards to => the TGC control manager (turbo geometry control) and is converted to positioning requests then goes to either the Air controller for a CM 870 or for electronic turbos, out to the TAHR filter (turbo anti hysterisis (anti-chuff) filter) then onwards to => the VGT (vg turbine manager) and the VGA (vg actuator control manager) and finally out to the J1939 controller sending messages to the turbo.
============
That is the chain of command for the MCF. Some1 can tweak on it till their face turns purple, and all they gonna see is messages changing on the J1939 for a turbo that is no longer connected to it and errors if they get it too far out of whack that can simply be set on ignore just like like cummns does when they use an HX series.
The fuel-air mix, injection timing, torque curve, and any sensors that were removed need to be re-adjusted properly. It does take doing things right, and making some comprimises on the bottom end fuel-air-mix because the BW is a bit lazy on the bottom end if it is cpec'd with he right exhaust housing for a 15-litlre. Turbo inlet temp sensor needs override and set to roughly 125 to 130-F (thereabouts) for correct combustion offsets if its been removed. isx neds to see a tiny bit of heat at that sensor to estimate turbo heat soak, its finicky that way, so if some1 removed it, it needs to be set. A borg-weener turbo does not match the respomnse curve of the isx. Because of this, if it has the right housing for the `1500+ rpm ranges needed for isx, the bottom is lazy and fuel-air-mix needs to be set to allow a bit of extra fuel (bordering on making black smoke when some1 stomps accel pedal) on the bottom end to get it spooled up quickly, otherwise the whole engine is a bit laggy. But in no way should it take some special fancy-talked BS software.
fuel milage is going to go to the dogs vs. healthy engine and vgt. save 5k on turbo to spend 8k or more a year on fuel losses, depends on what truck used for tho. . gotta love it.
U also loose most of the engine brake. just make sure it dont over-boost at high rpm too. for a 2250 that would be about 35-37 psi max before detonation sets in and starts fretting mid-stops. a wastegate added to one is your friend cuz u can use the smaller housing and make it spool up faster on the bottom end and let the waste-gate blow off the excess above 35 psi or so when it gets goin.
should mention too that in about 2 or 3 years, sound like some1 gonna be crying they lost the enigne due to garbage can tuning and poor-man decisions. thats the road it sound like its on anyhow.
RE: CM2250 VGT delete issue - colterHD - 06-04-2020
(06-04-2020, 12:13 AM)MaraJin Wrote: the MCF "Mass Charge Flow" manager is the manager responsible for converting intake pressure and flow requests and sending then onward to the VG turbo manager(s).thank you for the reply. That really helps clear up the fuzz when I look at its program. this cost them 10k to convert (Canadian$)and it made it a year to this point and it’s letting go. It is lazy down low and pukes black all the time.
Someone can make special procedure and calculations all they want to and adjust on the MCF tables but it will not effect a mechanically driven turbo or how the egine runs. Simply disable any derates it wants to impose because it can no longer control the "air" and leave it alone.
(study carefully what I say here if you are someone still learning, this is the correct info) ...
===============
The MCF is fed by the CBR/CBO (combustion request and off nominal correction request managers) and is selected by what engine mode your in, etc... it then gets sent to => and filtered by the CHL (charge/boost limit) manager then goes thru the => CSE (charge/boost system error correction) manager then goes thru the => CSE-Xform angle manager so it can be split into offsets for clean vs. dirty air / intake pressure requests and EGR requests, then goes onwards to => the TGC control manager (turbo geometry control) and is converted to positioning requests then goes to either the Air controller for a CM 870 or for electronic turbos, out to the TAHR filter (turbo anti hysterisis (anti-chuff) filter) then onwards to => the VGT (vg turbine manager) and the VGA (vg actuator control manager) and finally out to the J1939 controller sending messages to the turbo.
============
That is the chain of command for the MCF. Some1 can tweak on it till their face turns purple, and all they gonna see is messages changing on the J1939 for a turbo that is no longer connected to it and errors if they get it too far out of whack that can simply be set on ignore just like like cummns does when they use an HX series.
The fuel-air mix, injection timing, torque curve, and any sensors that were removed need to be re-adjusted properly. It does take doing things right, and making some comprimises on the bottom end fuel-air-mix because the BW is a bit lazy on the bottom end if it is cpec'd with he right exhaust housing for a 15-litlre. Turbo inlet temp sensor needs override and set to roughly 125 to 130-F (thereabouts) for correct combustion offsets. isx neds to see a tiny bit of heat at that sensor to estimate turbo heat soak, its finicky that way, so if some1 removed it, it needs to be set. A borg-weener turbo does not match the respomnse curve of the isx. Because of this, if it has the right housing for the `1500+ rpm ranges needed for isx, the bottom is lazy and fuel-air-mix needs to be set to allow a bit of extra fuel (bordering on making black smoke when some1 stomps accel pedal) on the bottom end to get it spooled up quickly, otherwise the whole engine is a bit laggy. But in no way should it take some special fancy-talked BS software.
fuel milage is going to go to the dogs vs. healthy engine and vgt. save 5k on turbo to spend 8k or more a year on fuel losses, depends on what truck used for tho. . gotta love it.
U also loose most of the engine brake. just make sure it dont over-boost at high rpm too. for a 2250 that would be about 35-37 psi max before detonation sets in and starts fretting mid-stops. a wastegate added to one is your friend cuz u can use the smaller housing and make it spool up faster on the bottom end and let the waste-gate blow off the excess above 35 psi or so when it gets goin.
should mention too that in about 2 or 3 years, sound like some1 gonna be crying they lost the enigne due to garbage can tuning and poor-man decisions. thats the road it sound like its on anyhow.
it is a borg warner 063G. As far as retuning properly what is your recommendation as far a procedure. I don’t want to keep his truck down for too long in this economy but I want to give him a solid product.